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one physicist I interviewed said that

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this was his favorite evidence for

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survival strongest evidence he gave me

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other examples but this was his favorite

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and it has to do with the living

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Grandmaster Viktor Korchnoi and I

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couldn't find a picture of Robert

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Rollins on google images but he's the

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medium automatic writing medium who

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brought through allegedly is amarachi

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Hungarian Grand Master from the early

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1900's now honey p i'm curious how many

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people have heard about this case please

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raise your hand just curious how much

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this is known okay less than half and i

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think everybody had to read this because

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it's such a fascinating case i'm not

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saying you have to come down one way or

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the other on the evidence but I've got

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the references here in JSP our april

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2006 and july two thousand seven and the

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reason this is such an interesting case

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is it's not just that robert Rollins who

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didn't know how to play chess before

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this started by the way not only brought

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through information that showed knowing

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that in other words a lot of information

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that was hard to get at about muraki's

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life but also knowing how I mean how did

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he manage to play a high-level chess

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game so it read all the details it's

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quite amazing and so that's one

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perspective from the one physicists I

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interviewed and yet when i asked the

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sociologists about the same case he just

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dismissed it he said i'm not impressed

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with that at all and we don't know the

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limits of human capability and he said

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that the evidence about from spirit

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mediums the things that spirit mediums

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tell us are very trivial i guess like

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what this baby pig has told us and he

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does safe research he's in an anomalous

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experiences research unit but he does

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conversational analysis how people talk

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about their experiences with mediums

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which sounds a little more legitimate

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even though this is a pretty wild and

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wooly sociology department that he's in

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by comparison it is compared to most

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ones i don't want to say any more i'm

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not giving if you can figure out who

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mostly these people are probably but I

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can't really do them justice in a short

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talks on leaving their names out but i

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will mention them in my book that will

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come out in about seven years probably

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and in a DVD documentary about this when

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they've given me permission so i just

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thought that was interesting to see how

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strikingly different people's attitudes

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were about these cases i interviewed two

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paranormal investigators who started out

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saying there were 100 hundred percent

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convinced that EDP was from the other

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side but as we talked more and more they

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said you know i don't think we can

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convince the scientists I think we've

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convinced a lot of relatives of the

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people whose voices came through from

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the other side and they also said you

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know I'm not sure that we can separate

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universal consciousness whoops I left

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out an S have really proof read this a

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lot but I left out an S and

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consciousness that how do you tell the

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difference between universal

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consciousness and survival is maybe it's

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a one phenomenon and they're kind of

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skeptical of mediums but that's not true

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of all paranormal investigators who use

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EVP so there's a lot of variability now

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this sociologist even always a friend of

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mine I could not get him on task I had

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an awful time and what he says is quite

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fascinating about anomalous experiences

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being related to shamanic healing and

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the origin of religion but it was so

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hard to get him back said thank you

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thank you thank you but can you play the

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science game here and tell me what would

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be good evidence and he said well the

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evidence for survival in parapsychology

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is really inadequate and they go back to

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what he wanted to say again which is

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that what really counts is the

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psychological benefits the medical

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benefits of an almost experiences this

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was really interesting this pair of

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psychological research unit somewhere in

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the eastern hemisphere i found was was

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very that see this a little bit off

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because i have a mac that some of the

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lines are not quite right anyway i could

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really see the social control system

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involved here because they're very

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highly skeptical they didn't want to

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talk about survival much and there's

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been put in place a research assessment

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system at the University in which they

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evaluate not just individuals but whole

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departments and so there is a pressure

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for this department to do only work

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that's going to be easy to easier to

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publish in mainstream journals so

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there's a lot more to do there's a lot

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more to do and I'm sad to say that so

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far it seems like it's more about the

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framing than about the evidence I guess

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I shouldn't have been surprised as a

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sociologist but this is a very important

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question and I'm going to get to the

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bottom of this I think and that's my

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hope that's my my dream to read all

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these things and somehow I'll get the

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Holy Grail when I'm done reading all

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these things in interviewing people but

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I have to realistically say this may be

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a case of ironic science John Horgan you

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know I didn't want to even read the book

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with a title like the end of science so

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this is going to be one another one of

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those things about closing down the

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Patent Office but it's a very

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interesting book to consider so the end

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of science in there he talks about

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ironic science is this a kind of

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unanswerable question where we can't get

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empirical evidence given the limits of

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human science I hope that's not true but

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we shall see and i'll let you know but

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maybe we don't have to wait very long

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because later this afternoon Bruce

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Grayson is going to tell us maybe in is

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post-mortem survival a scientific

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switch it off good which way is he going

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to work you got it Thank You charlie we

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yeah I just want to say in your first

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slide under side you can add psychometry

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yes and and the other thing I wanted to

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say is that I I've been doing paranormal

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stuff and then all the research for 31

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years and I've never seen anything

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couldn't be proven with current science

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so I don't see why the to camp being

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agreement pursued the good the bad

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monthly so you're saying that this is

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Hollander

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after all

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being able to show a definite mechanism

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which i guess is related to your issue

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how theoretically does this actually

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happen but they seem to be all over the

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place on different ways to approach the

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problem that's but in the literature of

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course there's a whole lot more that I

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haven't even talked about very much but

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there are problems on all levels but i'm

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not sure exactly how to answer that but

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well you got i'm trying to probe at

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least you know my anecdotal experience

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like are acting the folks is that are

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you ready all hardship yeah that was our

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my

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flyers vs. observation services

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discrimination the fury freeways nothing

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to be said is it a lot of cases you've

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got theory that's consistent I mean data

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that's consistent consistent with

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various theories and then you try to

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think of well what would be evidence

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that would eliminate one of the theories

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right spoke with either because you pro

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you're often the area for my personal

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experience is such and such and from

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because I asked him to do it because I

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wanted to know that that's part of the

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sociology of sciences is trying to

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figure out our sociology of knowledge

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what was it that happened to you what

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was it happen you in 7th grade be that

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you think this way right that's the kind

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of thing right well it's all over the

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place but I did find a few people who

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said they had no early experiences they

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they they came to this intellectually

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they were skeptics and so on my UFO

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researchers over half of them said they

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had a UFO experience and so I don't have

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a very small sample right now but I

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suspect that it's going to be something

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like that to that because this is an

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area of research where you taking risks

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and so what is where is the reward to

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take the chance to do the research so a